Lair List – Pickup Artist and Seduction Lairs

One of the main purposes of a lair is to help new guys achieve the skills with women they want. Having lair meetings, a forum to discuss new topics, and regular events where guys can meet up and network in the field are all great things about lairs to support new guys in their journey to being a pickup artist.

But often, however, they are simply not enough. A lot of guys can be timid. They may not acknowledge their weaknesses and thus may never be able to improve. They might be active on the forum but scarce going out to the field. Or simply, they might not see immediate improvement and give up being in the lair altogether.

A big brother program is a simple concept that has been successfully implemented in many top lairs around the world. Basically it works like this:

When a new guy joins the lair, he’s immediately paired off with one of the longer serving members. Somebody who can take him out one on one, show some different techniques, openers, routine stacks, and other tactics guys in the lair do.

Most importantly, he can teach the new member how to wing, and proper wing etiquette. That way more skilled members don’t get discourage when their sets get jacked up by a FNG (fucking new guy) who is clueless about what he’s doing.

Teaching proper wing etiquette prior to entry in the lair is beneficial to everyone. New guys in the lair need to be taught properly. Having one on one attention can serve this purpose immensely. Much more than simply being invited out to a lair gathering.

Plus, it allows guys to get networked much more quickly than otherwise.

As most lair leaders know, the attrition rate of new members is usually very low. Often lairs receive endless emails from guys looking to get better and take their game to the next level. But when being invited out to a lair event, the amount of guys who show up is very low.

Having a big brother program to integrate new guys is a really good way to make sure their not getting lost in the fray. Especially as lairs grow bigger and bigger.

Think about implementing a big brother program in your lair. At your next lair meeting, see how many active guys would be receptive to volunteering for it. The results may surprise you.

Keyboard Jockeys, KJ’s, or whatever other name they may acquire, everybody in a lair knows who they are. They always have the advice no matter which question is posed, yet they are never out in the field nor have field reports on their own.

They have every excuse in the book:
“I’m not really working on it right now”
“I have to get some things in my life together first before I can really work on pickup”
“I have 3 girls in my harem you guys don’t know about so I don’t really need to pickup anymore”

Yet when it comes to proving their wild claims, they always seem to disappear. They post in the forums multiple times a day, have the highest post counts, show up to every lair meeting, but when it comes to actually meeting out in the field, they’re always a no-show.

The thing about KJ’s is a lot of times they really do have good advice. They know everything “by the book” and will tell you how easy it all is, yet they have little real world experience with it themselves. Thus, they can often be deceiving especially to newbies who are taking their advice verbatim.

A good lair leader will always look out for keyboard jockeys. It might not seem like a big deal at first but a few KJ’s have the ability to make a lair not fun anymore. Everyone wants constructive criticism. If one has sticking points they want to resolve it helps to get outside points of view. Yet nobody wants to get shouted down by a KJ.

The biggest problem will keyboard jockeys is that deep down they are usually validation seeking. They get their validation in pickup through the lair and “helping” new guys. Yet if they were to get out in the field themselves they would lose that validation, and would have to admit first hand that they have a lot of work themselves in understanding social dynamics. Thus, they avoid the field at all costs, they avoid demonstrating their skills in front of others, and they avoid peer review. All the while they criticize everyone else’s viewpoints but their own.

When called out, KJ’s have the capability to turn into full-on trolls disrupting the forum. They may attempt to gather favor with new guys and other lair members to turn people against one another. The end result may weaken morale and attempt to fracture the lair.

Thus, lairs should take steps to avoid keyboard jockeys from dominating the forum. Certain rules can be applicable to everyone. Such as:

Everyone has to post 1 field report a month
Everyone has to attend one lair event per month.
Everyone has to make a certain amount of approaches per night

Etcetera. If these rules are not met, the individual is instantly put on probabation, and eventually expelled if they cannot meet the simple requirements. These requirement s can be enshrined in the lair constitution to make them official.

Of course, each lair has a different set of circumstances and thus different possible solutions to the matter, and the above only serves as a theoretical example.

The most important thing to remember is KJ’s need help too. By pushing them to go out and approach and be subject to criticism by their peers they will see their flaws and where they need help. They will be thankful that they were pushed to go out and improve rather than their natural inclination to sit on the sidelines.

As lairs grow larger and guys skill with women increases, some guys are inevitably going to look into how to profit off the lair. A good lair leader will tread carefully when going in this direction, as leaders who bring the lair into a purely commercial direction will probably result in splits in the community, the emergence of new lairs, and probably being taken off of the lair list. Before you know it, the old lair might becoming nothing more than a struggling seduction school competing with some of the major companies of there. Such a decision can have irreversible consequences.

However, sometimes tolerating certain commercial aspects can have a positive influence on the lair as a whole. For instance, sometimes resident seduction gurus will remain active in their community in exchange for a little free promotion. As long as everyone knows that nobody is pressured to accept being pushed into training or coaching services, having a skilled and notable contributors can have an encouraging outcome on new members and the morale of the group.

Additionally, many of your old and seasoned members may move on to joint ventures with top PUA companies. Can they really be expected to refrain from any commercial activities with their old lair? Even so much as a simple announcement?

Discussions of what commercial activities should center on the limits of how much promotion and advertising should be allowed in the lair. Whether to have a commercial only forum on your website, whether guys can recruit for bootcamps or coaching services, or whether to have your own products. As lair leaders, the most important aspect to consider is keeping the integrity of the lair. If guys feel that the integrity of the lair has been compromised in order to make certain people money then disputes will arise. Most often these disputes will result in a split in the lair. And if new guys feel they are being pressured to buy products, they will probably leave.

Sometimes a grey area can develop when Lairs begin having dues or “lair funds”. It may be a simple passing around of the hat or an official requirement each month. Lairs do have certain amount of costs that need to be upkeep. Websites, guest speakers, convention halls, venues, VIP tables, official events, etc, can grow to accumulate a large tab. When the lair dabbles in commercial activity for profit, sometime, these funds which were supposed to support the lair may be compromised.

Lair leaders should refrain from the commercial aspects of pickup to resolve any conflict of interest that may arise. They shouldn’t be compelled to sway people towards a certain pickup company because they profit of it. Thus, lairs as a whole should maintain their integrity by keeping neutral leaders in place that can best make decisions for the whole group.

By keeping yourself clear of any conflicts of interest, you will have more clarity to resolve disputes, make good decisions on what commercial activities to allow, which ones to ban, and keep the lair free of disputes that result on splitting up the lair.

Often the question comes up whether female Pickup Artists should be allowed in a lair. As the game gets more and more mainstream exposure, with reality TV, radio shows, and be a regular feature in many popular magazines and publications, more and more women are now getting into the game as well. This is evident in the amount of seduction companies now offering female trainers and “wing women” to their students to give a female perspective on seduction.

As more girls get into the game, more lairs are being contacted by women inquiring about membership. If you’re lair has yet to be approached by women you can expect to soon enough be contacted by girls looking to be members. Thus, the dilemma: should we invite women into our lair?

Some guys have no problem letting women into the lair, while others assert that lairs are a boy’s club with no place for women. There are some advantages and disadvantages to each approach.

By inviting women into the lair, members can enjoy instant social proof by having a female wing woman. Further, by having a female well versed in the game, new guys won’t have to feel awkward or pressured when approaching other sets, as they might with a female acquaintance of theirs. Female wings can help improve their game, give insights that male members may not have, and generally add value to the group. There is nothing worse than a lair sarge with dozens of guys cock farming and taking turns cold approaching every set in a given venue. Female wings promote a calmer atmosphere, enabling more successful approaches. Women also have the ability to DHV lair members in a ways that male wings simple never could.

Of course, having women in the lair could invite many problems as well. Some guys question how women can really be in the game in the first place? What are they after? Are they simply trying to seduce men? If so, women don’t really need the game for that. Most women, however, will assert they are simply aiming for the same goals as men: to achieve mastery of social dynamics and gain the upper hand in the social interaction.

Another problem arises when guys seduce female members of the lair. As in any group or organization, the potential for drama escalates when peers begin sleeping with each other. What would happen if members start gaming the same girl, or multiple girls getting jealous fighting over the same guy? The potential conflict may break up the morale or unity of the lair as a whole.

One of the biggest issues to come to play, even if those conflicts never arise, is the effect a woman’s presence may have on the group as a whole. Put simple, most men simply don’t act the same way when they are in the company of a woman. They may never feel comfortable writing field reports and seducing multiple women, they might not give the same advice they would otherwise give, and they might feel uncomfortable being in the lair as a whole, prefer to communicate directly with other members. Some say for this reason the lair would have to always be a boy’s only club. One story has it that a female joined a lair only to find that a field report had already been written about her several months prior.

Many lairs have taken fundamentally different approaches to this dynamic. Some have invited in women no questions asked. Others have barred women completely. Both sides have achieved success with whatever method they have chosen.   So which option will work best for you and your lair? The answer is largely dependent on what your goals are.

First, sit down and have a meeting over the subject and get everyone’s perspective. As lair leaders, make sure to guide the conversation properly and everyone knows the pros and cons of each side, rather than a large group blurting out their opinions. Each lair will probably take different sides on the issue, largely depending on the opinions of the members. This might be something to make a majority vote so that everyone feels the outcome is legitimate.

There are some things to consider during this process.

1. Large lairs with open membership will probably not be as constrained to limit women on the board. Their influence on the proceedings of the lair will probably not factor as much than smaller lairs. Increasingly, many lairs are becoming more of an open forum in a certain geographical location. While smaller lairs, with a tighter clique and strict membership requirements, may find allowing women as members can disrupt the normal activities of the lair.
2. Lairs in larger metropolitan areas are more apt to be approached by women to be members. While in suburban or rural areas, lairs might never be contacted by a female. Thus, in some situations the issue is largely moot, while in others, the amount of girls looking to be PUAs are too large to ignore.
3. If there are multiple lairs in the same area, girls are probably going to contact each of them. Thus, one of the other lairs will probably accept them, either giving them the slighter advantage outlined above or causing them the ultimate disruption and collapse you were looking to avoid.

Whatever the case, one thing is for sure: more and more girls are learning the game. They first caught on to the routines, and now they are learning some of the deeper principles behind them. As time goes on more girls will be seeking to achieve a greater knowledge of pickup. As lairs serve to be the leaders of the PUA community this is one issue that will require a great deal of attention.

As Lairs in many major cities continue to grow larger and larger, many lair leaders are finding organization to be more and more chaotic.

Gone are the days of Lair meetings being composed of a few guys meeting at somebody’s apartment with pizza and beer. Increasingly, Lair meetings are becoming official seminars with a reserved venue at a convention center, a scheduled speaker lineup, and official minutes of all the lair proceedings.

Likewise, the question is posed of how to organize a growing bureaucracy? Especially ones that tend to contain large personalities and growing egos?

The Answer? Lair Constitutions.

The concept of a Constitution organizing the conduct of a Lair originates back to Frank B Kermit and the Montreal Seduction Lair. The Lair Constitution the Montreal Lair developed became the basis for constitutions and charters throughout the world. It solved the difficult questions of how to choose leadership, meeting policies, membership requirements, lair dues, and more. Additionally, the Lair Constitution was an agreed upon set of principles that all members could acknowledge they submitted to when disputes inevitably arise.

Laying down the rules and requirements of members is a critical point for lair leadership when it comes to problematic members. Rouge members flagrantly violating the respect of the lair and other members can bring down morale and cause your best pickup artists to abandon the lair and giving their valuable input and expertise. When it comes to ejecting members and banning people who violate the rules, having a Constitution they agreed to abide by upon accepting membership to the lair simplifies the matter greatly. Specifically, it empowers lair leaders to point to the rule that was violated, without having to discuss specific details that can and will inflame banned members into escalating further drama.

So what elements should be included into the Lair Constitution?

First, a powerful mission statement. Yeah, everyone knows we are here to pickup chicks and get laid. However, the mission of the Lair should include more. Provide for a common meeting ground amongst like-minded men, to collectively improve the lifestyle and social skills of our members, to develop a support network of wingmen, and provide encouragement to members to constantly achieve greater and greater success.

Secondly, lay out the membership requirements and rules. Requirements can include anything from a minimum amount of field reports in a given time period, attendance of lair meetings and events, or a reasonable annual dues that can be used to facilitate lair activities.

Laying down the rules of members is a critical point for lair leadership when it comes to problematic members. Rouge members flagrantly violating the respect of the lair and other members can bring down morale and cause your best pickup artists to abandon giving their valuable input and expertise. When it comes to eject members and banning people who violate the rules, having a Constitution they agreed to abide by upon accepting membership to the lair simplifies the matter greatly. Specifically, it empowers lair leaders to point to the rule that was violated, without having to discuss specific details that can and will inflame banned members into escalating further drama.

Third, the duties of any officers elected or appointed should be clearly defined. It’s not enough to say we have an “activity planner”. Give clearly defined duties and goal setting within the constitution. For example, the position may be responsible for coming up with monthly outings, themes for Lair events, goals for how many members show up. Without clearly defined responsibilities, the officer may fall back on the lowest level of commitment, such as a short single post in the lair forum telling everyone to meet up at the bar. Instead, the officer should be calling everyone to confirm, setting up reservations, going over seduction material, and developing fun and interesting themes that get everyone excited for the event.

Fourth, identify legal requirements that the lair should follow and abide by. For example, it may be necessary to limit your liability as a lair leader for the worst possible scenarios. What if a deviant in the lair gets arrested and it is identified he is part of a “seduction lair”?  To limit these possibilities, the lair should have clearly identified rules against sexual predators, known sex offenders, drug addicts, or other societal deviants. If a member is constantly discussing hyper sexual conduct such as engaging in minors, there should be clearly defined rules to revoke their membership. Even if the conduct may not be explicit illegal in many cases, it is a good practice to attempt to watch for warning indicators so problem members can be dealt with before it results in a violation of the law.  For example, in many jurisdictions it is legal to engage in sexual intercourse with a person under the age of 18.  While not illegal, the law’s intention was to prevent people from going to jail for having sex with their girlfriend or boyfriend, not to allow fully grown men to entice young and naive girls at their local high schools.  Thus, it is probably wise to make an official statement against unscrupulous conduct such as this and ban or eject members who make a point of violating it.  If your lair is ever questioned, it is good to have an official outline of the principles your lair is guided by, rather than being seen as “seducing” or ‘tricking’ women into sex.

Thus, lair membership should probably have its own officer to rigorously apply the standards of conduct for lair members. The person who screens new members should likewise have their duties rigorously defined so that it is constantly being applied in the appropriate manner.

Fifth, identify appropriate lair functions. To prevent the lair stagnating in interest and activity, there should be an outline of events to be scheduled on a regular basis. Things like lair meetings should be hosted once a month or every other month. Give a schedule to shoot for having official guest speakers. Even in somewhat remote locations should attempt to get speakers once every three months or so.

Sixth, Voting. Voting is a crucial element to a lair as it is the basis for preventing disputes and getting everyone in the lair to agree upon how things are being run. It is impossible for each member to get what he wants all the time. Voting is an agreed upon method to say we will respect the outcome of the results regardless of what happens.

To make sure voting is given the up most respect, the procedures should be as extensive as possible. A simple yay or nay up or down vote on any topic can still cause disputes. What if not all members were present? What if one side deliberately rallied as many people around their cause, regardless of their membership to the lair? Things like these constantly come up during lair votes. Especially when the outcome is only a one or two point spread and the result is radically different. Some members will feel jilted or that they were cheated out of their way, and refuse to drop the matter and insist the vote was not legitimate.

Thus, voting procedures should be extensive and elaborate. For important matters, the issue may not be settled right off the bat, but have a scheduled vote for a later date, so all members can be reached and be present.

Also, read up on the different types of voting systems.  Many organizations have found that the typical majority winner take all system was ineffective, and many alternatives have been developed.

Lastly, regulate commercial activities. As the lair grows, it is inevitable that some members see dollar signs out of the lair. It may even be elements of the lair leadership. It could be selling an ebook that they’ve written, pushing new members to accept their coaching services, or even just trying to advertise more. In some cases, guest speakers or gurus can be productive members of the lair in exchange for a little promotional services. In other cases, new members can be jaded when they feel pressured to accept expensive coaching services and decide to leave the lair early on. Many lairs have bounced between the different extremes on the matter. Some have found that the only way to maintain any integrity was to ban all commercial activity from the lair and ban those that violate the rules. Others have created dedicated sections on their forum for commercial announcements, so that advertising is clearly identified and nobody has to feel pressured to accepting such services. Try to brainstorm what policies should be come part of your lair, and clearly state and identify them in your constitution so that all members know what is expected.

Also, Frank B Kermit of the original Montreal Lair has a sample Constitution for lairs
Sample Lair Constitution

And also has an audio brief of the different types of issues lairs will face and the policies they can enact in Constitutions to deal with and prevent those problems.

Audio1

Audio2

Remember, having an official constitution or charter can be a critical element to how an organization is run.  It has the potential to limit liability, resolve disputes, and promote effective leadership and active members all in one.  A constitution is not something to be overlooked and any lair should give theirs some serious thought and development.

A reader writes:

What’s the deal with the different Lair Lists? I see different lists all over the place and they all list different lairs? One says there’s a lair in my area, another says there are two, and another doesn’t have any listed?

Here’s the deal: There is exactly ONE official lair list, and that is the lair list at FastSeduction.com. Every other list has been pulled from the fast seduction list.

FastSeduction made the official list many years ago in the early days of seduction community. To make spreading the information easier, they freely allowed other PUA sites the ability to host the lair list. The problem? Many of these sites haven’t updated their lair page in years. Some of them passed have been sold or passed on to commercial entities. Atleast one lair list has been known to pull down links to official lairs and replace them with their own commercial links. This is highly problematic, has newbie PUA’s looking for a lair are not only presented outdated information, they are also often forwarded to commercial providers looking to sell bootcamps and products.

This creates a highly confusing situation when aspiring pickup artists look for lairs in the area, often causing them to give up their search.

These outdated lists include Bristollair and Cliffslist, both of which have not been updated since at least 2005-2006.

How come these sites don’t update their listings?

It’s ridiculously easy to update their listing of the official lair list. One problem may be that a lot of their site owners simply hired web designers to design their site, and once finished have never had knowledgeable staff on board to keep afloat with the changing information. Another may be that they simply don’t care enough. Or possibly, they intentional desire outdated and confusing information so they can push their own training programs on newbie PUA’s. Whatever the case, we will never know, as they don’t seem to answer emails concerning this question.

So what can lair members do to help rectify the situation?

Make sure that all your websites, blogs, and more all link to the Fastseduction Lair List. The more times that people see that the more they will realize it is the only official and up to date lair directory on the Internet. Any other lair directory is either a feed of the Lair List at best, or at worst is an outdated script with commercial links.

Any time you see sites linking to other lair lists, be sure to send an email or comment notifying them that the information is deprecated.

Since the beginning of the pickup artist community, many guys begin questioning whether the terminology and jargon we use is inherently uncool.

A lot of people think that the terms we use: PUA, Pickup Artist, and Lairs, are naturally creepy and actually serve to regress our lifestyle more than it helps.

Instead of integrating ourselves with positive aspects of our life, it segregates us into our own click of “PUAs” who are in the know, away from “naturals” “AFC s” and “Chodes”. Instead of going out at night and having a good time, we end up going “sarging” as if we are on some sort of undercover mission that nobody can know about in our attempts to seduce women.

Or, is that paragraph just a load of bullshit from somebody that takes it all too seriously themselves? Discuss.

It’s an interesting question as many guys are increasingly avoiding the stereotypical terms that the PUA community has often used. It may be a backlash against the whole subculture created mostly by guys meeting on the internet, often irrespective of one’s skill with women.

Thus, if we extend that line of thinking, should we even be calling ourselves lairs? Let’s take a look at what some of the other guys are doing on the lair list.

Most of us, of course, are still officially being called lairs. Usually combined with whatever geographical location we are in. However, as new lairs spring up and whatever was the “first” lair in an area no longer really equating to be the “official” lair, you can see a lot of groups are breaking out of that mindset.

Some are replacing it with the word “society”, such as the Toronto Phoenix Society or the West Lafayette Seduction Society. Others embrace the social aspects of their club, like the Kingston Social Network. Many guys are going old schook with the moniker player, ie, the Player’s Los Angeles Yahoo Group, or simply “Play” for short.

Sometimes it depends on the lair. If it is a more more fraternal organization the group might emphasize themselves as a “brotherhood” to separate themselves from a simple forum where guys meetup. Others show has they get active: “The NYC Sarge Team”, to select a group of ‘profesional sargers’.

Whatever the case, lairs are moving beyond the often boring “(location) + Lair” and really getting descriptive with their titles. It can often be a method of marketing in cities with multiple lairs. And with the earliest lairs passing on their leadership again and again, and the old leaders often getting out of the game, whichever lair was “earliest” probably means very little to the new guy just picking up his first copy of “The Game”.

Depending on how your lair is structured, or what your groups goals are as far as organizing, think about reflecting some of that in how you choose your title.